tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143045057609697631.comments2023-08-15T10:08:29.351-07:00Latter-Day MarriageLatter-Day Marriagehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03474737772878508155noreply@blogger.comBlogger52125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143045057609697631.post-71620977147930534052021-03-05T06:00:54.643-08:002021-03-05T06:00:54.643-08:00I would not recommend lying. Two wrongs don't ...I would not recommend lying. Two wrongs don't make a right. The point of the post is a couple needs to take it directly to God if they have questions about the morality of oral sex. I think the chance of being asked about it or of having local leaders thinking a married couples sex life was required to be as restrictive as what you described is pretty close to zero, except perhaps in parts of the world where the church is new and local leaders grew up in a culture that embraced that attitude.Latter-Day Marriagehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03474737772878508155noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143045057609697631.post-61636988713781258582021-03-04T20:09:18.261-08:002021-03-04T20:09:18.261-08:00The best way is to do exactly what is advised. Don...The best way is to do exactly what is advised. Don't bring it up. None or their business. If the interviewer tries to breach the limitation restricting asking only the official questions, tell them that they are not supposed to ask that, and don't answer it. If they persist, there are 3 options. 1. Tell them that they are out of line with the question. Then leave. Demand a different interviewer. And explain why. Be very offended. 2. Lie. And say you don't, and never have worn your wife's panties or tied her up to the bed. That you only have ever had sex while both are wearing garments in bed, in the dark, in returned missionary position and only with the intent of pregnancy and being scrupulous in avoiding the sin of female orgasm. Ideally 8 children, 8 lifetime ejacultions. Only more ejaculations if the wife fails in her duty to have your sperm work every single time they enter her. This is OK because he broke the rules and made the interview invalid., 3. Ask him why he has a prurient interest in your sex life? Is he a peeping tom? A porn addict? Etc. Manoffirehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03025599034540310456noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143045057609697631.post-63938398516838886382020-10-25T19:17:39.871-07:002020-10-25T19:17:39.871-07:00You say 'several times' so I assume there ...You say 'several times' so I assume there are also several times where oral sex has been a positive experience where you didn't have those feelings after. What do you think makes the difference?<br /><br />Sometimes it can be hard to tell the difference between a loss of the spirit and just negative emotions. We can feel guilt and shame over things that are not wrong if we hold in our mind the idea they are wrong, and Satan wants to give us negative emotions to ward us off from doing good. He is not called 'the accuser' for nothing. If you feel you are pushed into it, that can create negative feelings too. There are a million ways you can do the right thing and feel bad about it. We are emotionally complex creatures and it may take some deep introspection to pin down where those feelings are coming from.<br /><br />It can also be the case that for a particular instance the Spirit might suggest not doing that because a different form of intimacy will be better for your marriage or for you, or for your spouse at that point for some reason. If you do feel prompted to not engage in oral at a particular time, follow that prompting, and ask God for guidance on what to do instead. Don't forget the law of witnesses, if you and your spouse don't both have the same prompting, you can't be sure it is a prompting from God.<br /><br />Also, feeling 'really lusty' for your husband isn't a bad thing, in fact I would say a married person should have intense sexual desire for their spouse at times. Lust, as I understand it, is when you put satisfying sexual desire ahead of keeping the commandments of God. Pretty much every man has felt sexual desire for his wife prior to their marriage, but if they make keeping the commandment of God a higher priority they won't act in a sinful way.<br /><br />The Lord knows you better than you know yourself, and there is nothing wrong about talking with God about sexual questions and issue in private prayer, even in prayer with your spouse (but talk about it first). Keep pondering, searching, studying and praying.Latter-Day Marriagehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03474737772878508155noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143045057609697631.post-63278777461065035642020-10-25T18:08:07.983-07:002020-10-25T18:08:07.983-07:00Google search. I am trying to see why I keep feeli...Google search. I am trying to see why I keep feeling a loss of the spirit after having oral sex with my husband. I love oral sex, and am an active member and temple recommend holder. Several times in my marriage, I have felt the feeling that I shouldn’t have/give oral sex, or if I have, I’ve felt an absence of the spirit/and or felt really lusty towards my man and just in general. As I started noticing this pattern and honestly, I don’t always know if I’m receiving revelation or just being over zealous bc I tend to be rather black and white when it comes to understanding doctrine, I googled the answer. I’ve asked a social worker/counselor for the church, I asked my previous bishop about intimacy in general (he said if it brings us together and we feel closer then it’s probability a good thing. Anyway, I’m nervous to bring it up with my husband, but my search is part of me studying things out in my mind. Thanks for your post. Elizahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08655947554359464676noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143045057609697631.post-42944631598700147282020-01-03T12:15:26.783-08:002020-01-03T12:15:26.783-08:00The letter as a whole was about how to conduct wor...The letter as a whole was about how to conduct worthiness interviews. It is a rather long letter covering a lot of details of that topic and oral sex is only briefly mentioned due to the fact that priesthood leaders do (or did) sometimes get questions about if it is appropriate or not.<br /><br />I wouldn't say their comments on that point were wrong since they did say they were just expressing their own interpretation of things, but I think it could have been said a lot better. They should have been clearer that this was not a pronouncement of doctrine or policy. It certainly was wrong for Bishops and others to take it as doctrine and start treating it that way. Doing that is what prompted the second letter.<br /><br />So yes, sometimes even GA's don't expressing things as well as they should, or try to do the right thing in a less than perfect way, and we need to be careful of noting the difference between the man and the message.Latter-Day Marriagehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03474737772878508155noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143045057609697631.post-75169322763592673202020-01-03T10:30:12.606-08:002020-01-03T10:30:12.606-08:00Why can't we, as Latter Day Saints, live with ...Why can't we, as Latter Day Saints, live with this just simply being a mistake? The Brethren obviously did not think through the consequences of putting out such a letter. The information in the letter was bound to get out, and it got out immediately. Because of the letter, the Church was now in our bedrooms. What did our missionaries tell the married couples they were teaching when they asked about the letter? Putting our missionaries in a position to have to talk about married oral sex being a sin was simply not an intended consequence. Were they prepared to tell married couples, where the practice may have been a fulfilling part of their marriage for years, they needed to stop because it was an unholy and impure practice? Sending out the letter was just a bad idea. Why do we need to try to make weak arguments justifying the letter? The statement from the letter couldn't have been more clear: "Married persons should understand that if in their marital relations they are guilty of unnatural, impure, or unholy practices, they should not enter the temple unless and until they repent and discontinue any such practice.... The First Presidency has interpreted oral sex as constituting an unnatural, impure, or unholy practice." I am a faithful Latter Day Saint. Our leaders are not perfect. Sometimes they make mistakes. Here they made one and soon realized it. We have plenty of precedence for imperfection in our history. We should own it and move on. Rodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02534923805445119470noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143045057609697631.post-55508103591578654182019-04-01T22:45:53.805-07:002019-04-01T22:45:53.805-07:00Yes it should be, its important for the survival i...Yes it should be, its important for the survival in nuptial bond. I completely agree with the facts. Thank you for inspiring.<br /><a href="https://sunvilla.in/" rel="nofollow"> sun villa </a>Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07561452923905075464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143045057609697631.post-23375844249872413172019-04-01T22:41:31.202-07:002019-04-01T22:41:31.202-07:00Great post!!!!!. Quiet relatable and informative.
...Great post!!!!!. Quiet relatable and informative.<br /><a href="https://sunvilla.in/" rel="nofollow"> sun villa </a><br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07561452923905075464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143045057609697631.post-76123810151229404622019-01-29T22:03:08.053-08:002019-01-29T22:03:08.053-08:00You are certainly free to disagree with me if you ...You are certainly free to disagree with me if you wish, but I don't see anything in letter 2 that recants anything in letter 1, it only repeats parts of letter 1 that were not being followed. <br /><br />I do agree that a prophet doesn't have to say 'thus saith the Lord', but this is a case where the First Presidency specifically said they were offering their interpretation. THEY are saying it is not revelation. Why not take them at their word on that?<br /><br />And saying you shouldn't do something doesn't automatically mean the thing is a sin. Some people grow up being taught french kissing is a sin, even in marriage, or having sex on Sunday, or letting your spouse see you naked, or any number of other perfectly normal things. The counsel is that a couple should not engage in a sexual act that they are not both comfortable with. That is good advice, nobody should be pushed into doing something that will leave them with a negative feeling. It harms the relationship even when the act in question is not sinful. So if it bothers one of you, don't do it. That doesn't rule out learning to become comfortable with something new and trying it later on however.<br /><br />The church is very clear about what constitutes a sexual sin: fornication, adultery, incest, homosexual, bestiality, pedophilia and necrophilia. They have no qualms about labeling masturbation a violation of the standards a member should live by. With oral sex all there is is one side issue remark they clearly labeled as their interpretation of things, not revelation, not commandment, not even policy, just the personal view of those 3 men at that point in time. They didn't send that remark out to the church, it was a side comment in a letter to church leaders on a totally different topic.<br /><br />If you want to hold the view that oral sex as sinful that is your choice, but you should not look down on those who have come to a different conclusion than you. Some members drink cola drinks (even apostles) and some think you shouldn't. Some families do things on Sunday that others think you shouldn't do. There is no revelation on that or on oral sex so each member is free to seek a personal answer from God and nobody should be judging others spirituality based on their conclusion. Latter-Day Marriagehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03474737772878508155noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143045057609697631.post-24927841831171926142019-01-29T18:17:09.360-08:002019-01-29T18:17:09.360-08:00Blaming ward leaders for reading that first letter...Blaming ward leaders for reading that first letter, and then mistakenly thinking oral sex is a sin, is like blaming the United States for seeing Pearl Harbor getting bombed and mistakenly thinking Japan is declaring war.<br /><br />They back-tracked letter 1 with letter 2, and they back-tracked and obfuscated their calling of oral sex a considerable sin. And they would have gotten away with it too if there hadn't been resistance. (This is how revelation works. What sticks, sticks. What doesn't stick is forgotten and buried, and anyone who brings it up is shamed like they're an idiot or something.)<br /><br />Here, let's look at their words: If marital couples are "guilty of unnatural, impure, or unholy" practices, they "should not enter the temple" until they "repent and discontinue". (How do you repent of something that's not a sin?) Then they use the *same* words to describe oral sex: "unnatural, impure, or unholy". And I don't buy the idea that "interpretation means opinion". Have you forgotten the sixth fundamental rule of following the prophet? "The prophet does not have to say “Thus saith the Lord” to give us scripture." --Ezra Taft Benson. In the first letter, they even invoke the name "the First Presidency" right before calling oral sex a sin. But hey, I guess I'm just looking beyond the mark for not realizing they weren't *actually* using their prophetic position to clearly state that oral sex is sinful. My bad. <br /><br />Let's put both letters together and into a scenario, though. If I was asking a bishop during an interview, "Oh, and may I ask if oral sex is a sin? Because I don't want to do it if it's a sin." According to the letters, the answer should be along the lines of, "if you bring it up, it must be. You'll have to stop doing it to enter the temple."<br /><br />If that's not absurd enough, consider this. If you've heard through the grapevine that it *might, maybe* be a sin, but you and your spouse have been doing it consensually and worry-free all this time, then because you asked the bishop it now retroactively becomes a sin.<br /><br />Yes, at best, the brethren very much rescinded a poorly worded official letter from prophets, seers, and revelators. At worst, they dipped their toe in the water of fixing this unnatural, impure, and unholy act, and they got bit. Hard.John Biskuphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08026718493798895927noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143045057609697631.post-65656929194751258622018-10-10T05:58:45.509-07:002018-10-10T05:58:45.509-07:00I assume you mean myth 12 rather than 2, as a way ...I assume you mean myth 12 rather than 2, as a way of saying you disagree with what I've posted.<br /><br />You certainly are entitled to think what you want of this post, however this blog is intended for faithful members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. We do not look to medical doctors for understanding on what is moral or immoral. <br /><br />My objective was to lay out the position of the Church on this and I feel I have done that accurately. If you think I have not please share what information you have from church sources that is contrary to what I've posted.Latter-Day Marriagehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03474737772878508155noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143045057609697631.post-87394562480967986922018-10-10T05:08:33.337-07:002018-10-10T05:08:33.337-07:00Myth 2. The information is good.Myth 2. The information is good.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17905263174052525979noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143045057609697631.post-66130042084043472642018-07-29T02:09:59.770-07:002018-07-29T02:09:59.770-07:00I got the book. Slowly...ever-so-slowly...working ...I got the book. Slowly...ever-so-slowly...working my way through it. I need to pick up the pace already. Anyway, <a href="https://www.amazon.com/They-Were-Not-Ashamed-Strengthening/dp/1587830345/ref=as_li_ss_tl?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1532855208&sr=8-1&keywords=and+they+were+not+ashamed&linkCode=ll1&tag=wwwel-20&linkId=c0d9cc5c5a02e94213bcaa07a7852f48&language=en_US" rel="nofollow">here it is on Amazon (currently $14.11 for the paperback version at the time of this post)</a>.Gabriel Stapleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10071071884455787806noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143045057609697631.post-22116628789947444452018-05-23T15:37:02.489-07:002018-05-23T15:37:02.489-07:00I understand how you feel, I wouldn't want the...I understand how you feel, I wouldn't want the church to play sex therapist for the members however. If they got into that, no matter what they said there would be people who would wind up feeling pressured or judged to do things they are not ready to do. <br /><br />The discussion needs to happen in a way where people can hear a point of view and decide for themselves how they feel about it, free to accept or reject it without being rebellious against the church so I'm comfortable with the 'teach them correct principles and let them govern themselves' approach. <br /><br />There actually are quite a few sex-positive things that various church leaders have said over the years. I think you might want to check Laura Brotherson's book "And they were not ashamed", it has a lot of good quotes along those lines in it. I think you'll find the kind of information and perspective there that you are looking for too.<br /><br />Members should discuss such things among themselves. Even more important is for a couple to learn to be able to talk about sex with each other and to talk to God about it too. I think a big challenge for members is the baggage picked up from previous generations, or from a previous faith if a convert. I wouldn't say they stuck in puritanical times though, although I expect being outside the Utah bubble is an advantage for that.Latter-Day Marriagehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03474737772878508155noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143045057609697631.post-56193656288603362332018-05-22T16:11:30.649-07:002018-05-22T16:11:30.649-07:00Google search. I cannot find any frank, open and ...Google search. I cannot find any frank, open and non sinful feeling inducing information on sex and intimacy. The church is stuck in puritanical times. Not that we need erotica, but something along those lines in a blunt down and dirty way of explaining to youth as well as newly converted couples, ways to pleasure your partner from beginning to end. When I look up information on sites like LDS living and all I find is 1 talk telling young men you know what is wrong so don't do it, by a general authority. I have to roll my eyes. Yes intimacy is very spiritual and brings us closer to God, but can't we also have fun in the bedroom with our partner that goes beyond vanilla sex and not feel like a filthy sinner?Khrystjahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17380947014284761737noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143045057609697631.post-76849185837220651782018-04-09T17:20:22.591-07:002018-04-09T17:20:22.591-07:00Myth 11: It's OK to pleasure yourself using vi...Myth 11: It's OK to pleasure yourself using vibrators and other sex toys.<br /><br />Context is important here.<br /><br />If somebody is deliberately stimulating their own genitals to produce sexual pleasure, arousal and/or orgasm for their sexual self-gratification then it doesn't make any difference if that stimulation is accomplished using a hand or a vibrator or anything else, that is masturbation.<br /><br />Conversely, if your spouse is stimulating you sexually it doesn't matter if they are using their hand, mouth, vibrator or whatever. That is part of marital intimacy that is perfectly fine.Latter-Day Marriagehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03474737772878508155noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143045057609697631.post-11085528489473806842018-04-09T16:39:14.827-07:002018-04-09T16:39:14.827-07:00Myth 10: The church didn't say anything again...Myth 10: The church didn't say anything against masturbation back in the 1800's or early 1900's, only after World War II<br /><br />It is a logical fallacy to argue from silence, implying that a lack of a specific official statements against something should be taken as acceptance. <br /><br />Masturbation was universally taken as immoral by all faiths in the 1800's and early 1900s so there was little need to teach that point to the Saints. They would already know that. Likewise you won't find much from those days teaching the saints that rape was wrong, since that too was universally understood. If the church was in fact OK with it, they would have had to specifically made a point of saying so for the Saints to know it, but there is nothing said in favor of it then or at any time in the history of the church.<br /><br />Even without an official statement however you have a 1902 account by Apostle Rudger Clawson of President Smith calling it "a most damnable and pernicious practice" and directing the priesthood of the church to be warned against it in stake conferences.<br /><br />Going back further, First Counselor George A. Smith spoke about “the evil of masturbation” in the Salt Lake School of Prophets in 1870, and Apostle Lorenzo Snow speculated that polygamy would "diminish the evil of self pollution" (ie: masturbation).<br /><br />It simply is not historically accurate to portray the church as neutral or accepting of masturbation in the far past.<br />Latter-Day Marriagehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03474737772878508155noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143045057609697631.post-78013438329352211632018-03-18T14:29:02.184-07:002018-03-18T14:29:02.184-07:00A discomfort about talking openly about sex is pre...A discomfort about talking openly about sex is pretty common in any faith and even among those of no faith.<br /><br />The position of the church is that adultery, pre-marital sexual relations (ie: fornication), pedophilia, necrophilia, bestiality, homosexual acts and masturbation are wrong.<br /><br />If you are talking about a member refusing to have sex outside of marriage I'll have to take their side on that one. That is not being inhibited, that is being a disciple of Christ.<br /><br />When it comes to what goes on between a husband and wife, the church doesn't micro-manage. It is up to the couple together with God to conclude together what their sex life should include or not include, keeping in mind the principles of the gospel such as kindness, love, respect, the sacredness of our bodies and sexuality, and the commands against the sexual sins listed above.<br /><br />On top of the doctrinal restrictions that members should stick to there are also a number of commonly held cultural ideas that are more restrictive than what doctrine states, sometimes refereed to as 'The Good Girl/Boy Syndrome'<br /><br />I would recommend reading Brotherson's book "And they were not ashamed' both to get a better understanding of the doctrinal and the cultural side of things.Latter-Day Marriagehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03474737772878508155noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143045057609697631.post-9872285945179837042018-02-26T05:40:00.980-08:002018-02-26T05:40:00.980-08:00I'm not LDS, got here via a Google search, and...I'm not LDS, got here via a Google search, and was searching because I'm trying to better understand the position of the church on this matter - to better understand why my LDS friends are inhibited about this, and also sex and sexuality more broadly.Livviehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00241543888879852741noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143045057609697631.post-51018531343790909512018-02-21T19:49:45.339-08:002018-02-21T19:49:45.339-08:00Month after month for more than a year this post g...Month after month for more than a year this post gets 10 or 20 times as many hits as any other post on my blog and I'm kind of curious about that.<br /><br />Would you be so kind as to post a comment and let me know how you wound up here. Google search, via Facebook or what?Latter-Day Marriagehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03474737772878508155noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143045057609697631.post-2518403290497645882018-02-18T22:00:40.557-08:002018-02-18T22:00:40.557-08:00having happy anniversary indicate you have patien...having <a href="https://www.zainia.com/happy-wedding-anniversary-wishes//" rel="nofollow">happy anniversary</a> indicate you have patience and respect the relationship and also care it. Nice article.<br />sanahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10765083671596597671noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143045057609697631.post-80923515077121337052016-10-13T17:09:56.528-07:002016-10-13T17:09:56.528-07:00I have read all of your posts regarding marriage a...I have read all of your posts regarding marriage and sexuality. <br /><br />I have read the first 3 books you have listed another books as well. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143045057609697631.post-86651220134675169112016-10-05T08:58:51.582-07:002016-10-05T08:58:51.582-07:00One of my favorite Christian books about sexuality...One of my favorite Christian books about sexuality in general but women's sexuality specifically is <em>Intimate Issues</em> by Linda Dillow and Lorraine Pintus. Another I have just read that speaks to male/female relationships is <em>For Men Only</em> by Jeff and Shaunti Feldhahn. She also coauthored the best-selling <em>For Women Only</em> which I have just started and expect to be very helpful with my blog. Those two are Christian written. Like your choices, those three would be on my Top Ten must read books for marriage and relationship issues. The last two I would suggest anyone read to understand the opposite sex, particularly since they are not only about sex but why we behave as we do. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143045057609697631.post-7296971005200248222016-03-21T05:40:52.969-07:002016-03-21T05:40:52.969-07:00Arranged marriage is quite simply child abuse unde...Arranged marriage is quite simply child abuse under another name. I'm not married, but it will be for love. It may be for pragmatism, but it won't be forced.<br /><a href="http://www.usabizdirectory.com/?post_type=event&p=209015" rel="nofollow">Express Those Feelings</a><br />Express Those Feelingshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16541757808642596297noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143045057609697631.post-11032380899585608132016-03-10T18:42:16.568-08:002016-03-10T18:42:16.568-08:00Great thoughts. :) I think that communicating prop...Great thoughts. :) I think that communicating properly is totally important in marriage. Keelie Reasonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04208854142749022227noreply@blogger.com